Ep28 | Are You A False Leader? (Ft Anthony Odle & PJ)

It's like we always do glorify the leader, but sometimes the leaders just doing their own thing Like it's not actually that hard to do their own thing, right? There's some people that go out there and try and be leaders. That's different But if you're just going out to do anything, that's not that hard.

What's harder is to look at someone Assess that they are going to be the person to help you be the person you want to be and to actually get up Go to them This is talking to my foot welcome to talking to my thoughts the podcast where we have open honest and raw Conversations with a twist we bring a unique perspective on our thoughts by literally Pre-recording the things on our mind before talking about them with the group We do this because we believe before you can be open with others.

You first have to be open with yourself Stay up to date with all our content by following us on our socials at talking to my thoughts and make sure you listen to the End to hear our responses to some of your thought-provoking questions My name is Craig aka mr Positive a cheesy motivator with a solution background big dreams and a passion for helping others find and maintain their peace My name is Simon aka SJ I'm a solution proud Caribbean black man.

I'm a father and I'm a content creator And we are thankfully joined by two of our guests today both Anthony and PJ Please introduce yourself Anthony first, please. So my name is Anthony Odo.

I am a best-selling author Educator been teaching in secondary schools for 24 years strength conditioning coach and lover of life My name is Paul amusey and people know me as PJ I'm a political consultant and and ex-alumni of Saint Bonaventure's and The the creator of man up speak up And really happy to be here today Nice. Perfect.

So we have some amazing some powerful powerful guests here, which is perfect for the topic We have before we really get into the topic. We kind of want to Get to know some of our guests.

So we actually have a question for both of you, which is a bit unusual But it gives us a us and the audience a bit of an inkling as to who you might be So the question today, I'll let you start Anthony If a day only lasted one hour, what would you do of your time? Interesting interesting interesting I think I'd spend it with my family.

I would spend it making some memories Doing, you know, just just being together Actively doing something we're a family that moves so we would be outside, you know, we'd do something we'd have fun and Yeah, that's what I that's what I would do Cool. That sounds good PJ. What about you?

It's a tough question a tough tough questions are good questions most of the time I Think for me, I don't have my own immediate family I have my brothers that are here all the time in this bachelor house of ours But to be honest, I think what came to mind first was what challenge could I do in an hour?

And for those that know me, I love challenges Craig is always chucking challenges out there So yeah, could I beat my record of press-ups? Could I do some training? Could I get my heart going So that I feel like I've achieved something in that hour. If not that then learn something new listen to a new podcast and read some new Quotes or sayings or ideologies and thoughts and and reflecting them myself.

So yeah, that's that's what I do in my hour That's really that's really interesting and what a contrast between the two the two answers as well So, thank you so much for that.

We're gonna kind of got a bit of inkling on each of us There now with today's topic Is a very powerful one as well and it's really great that we have such a powerful black man in this conversation as well But today's topic is father figures role models and false leaders So how we're gonna kick this off really before we really get into the topic we would like to kind of think What is the first force that come to you when you think about?

those titles You know my ultimate, you know, like assumption straight away was black men and a black man came to my mind right and and You know by no means though those three terms or phrases Mean that actually we're discussing black men in particular But it came to mind because it's the rhetoric that's been around me since I was young right that you know black young men black men Black men are not being role models or need role models or Have a lack of father figures and so straight away.

That was a segment. I went to and then the next thing, you know kind of the ideology Ideological thought was really about masculinity and for me the idea of what's what's happened to masculinity and Is it still relevant?

Who makes it relevant who guides it who sets it who supports it and those three Phrases that we spoke about or were speaking about and let me think of masculinity first thing that popped into my mind two words actually one is responsibility and The other word is power and a reason why I say that is I guess because When we're thinking about these these titles or these terms that we give to people is You give them a sense of power over leadership like lead for me leadership is is a sense of having power But at the same time as we know with power comes responsibility So yeah, naturally those those two words is what immediately popped into my mind power and responsibility so when I Looked at the words first of all, I was like the first two I could see them being linked the other one I was like, it was themed a bit at odds, but then when I kind of thought about it more visibility came to mind and either People actually being visible or like PJ said a Lack of that a lack of visibility particularly in as as a black community You see or you hear a lot of people talking about there's not enough black role models There's not enough other figures for these young men and so on and so forth So visibility was a was a big one and and what that looks like Because I think it's really important for us to be as men to be viable alternatives to the things that are drawing these young men into The wrong areas.

So for me the first two there's actually attached for father figures and role models They were kind of one in the same for me again.

First thing I thought about was A black role model need to be my father some of my uncles and then role models The outside of that closest I could even think about was Will Smith I didn't have many role models actually funny enough, but then I actually looked at I thought when the last word came up It was the controversy between the two of the people that other people place as Supposed father figures or for supposed role models.

Are they leaders or are they just false leaders?

In a sense and one of the things that popped up in my head, which is such a weird thing to say But was actually Rihanna When Rihanna kind of was was going up but she had a great music career She still has a great music career and then she started to get into more model inside of things This is really far-fetched But it's what popped up in my head when some modeling kind of things and she started to be do a bit more Nudes or whichever one it is kind of it went in that kind of direction A lot of people were kind of trying to shame her.

They were trying to shame her They were trying to put her down and there's I think she tweeted or she basically made a statement.

She says Stop making your children see me as a role model I am NOT trying to be their role model And the crazy thing is usually we would to be some people like say well you're supposed to be their role model You're supposed to be this and he said no, I'm not actually You are allowing your children to watch content and watch me in that light I didn't say that was I that's what my position was and she's just a person like us It's just a person So I really yeah I'm really interested in how we get into this conversation about the controversy around that because these role model far figures are basically leaders And how will we kind of divert?

From are they actually supposed to be close clusters leaders or archie are they false in a sense? So for those who don't know a bit about us, I don't know if mr. Old was okay with this But the fact I said This was basically our teacher when we was back in secondary school and technically for me Mr.

Old was a role model again For I guess a very very strong black man that just really led a lot of kids and understood us as well And I guess it could be that I don't know if I speak the same for Simon and PJ, but that's how it was for me So we are basically all school kids in the same year same age On the mr.

Old also, it's very it's very Honour to kind of be here and it'll be great when we kind of explore this the fact that we still was brought up Together to an extent we still have such you could really tell that we have such different views about all of these topics Oh, it's gonna be very powerful topic So as you guys know we are we have people our guests and ourselves usually pre-record our own thoughts about certain topics because usually we are We speak to ourselves without masks no filters.

No trying to fluff it up or anything like that We just very straight up about it So this is a time when we get to listen to people's thoughts and we're gonna kind of get into it firstly with Anthony's Pre-recording and then we'll discuss it afterwards.

So this is Anthony's Visibility responsibility Interception as I thought about the topic and the combination of words that make it up It Took me on a journey It was very interesting so it started off with the benefits of Good father figures role models And then the false teachers kind of threw it off a bit and Made me Consider the reality that sometimes People who are in those positions or potentially who put themselves in those positions as father figures and role models Could effectively be false teachers You know Spreading false messages false teachers false beliefs and then I jumped back to the positive benefits of having people who Beyond themselves Already and willing to invest their time their energy their love into Those that need it Those that for whatever reason don't have what I think, you know, everyone deserves Visibility going back to visibility if it's you know a beacon Just something to thought, you know a guy to kind of encourage you to to to keep on going to Remain hopeful to to be positive to challenge yourself to Do all of those things and then as I looked at the list again, I saw false teachers again and then it was you know How does this this sit with the other two?

And it you know, it may not be designed in a way that may not be the intention but It led me to a couple of points so you know if as a father figure I think that It's important to be able to offer perspective and strategies as a role model.

I think it's important to offer Perspective and strategies and as a Teacher not a false teacher, but as a teacher, I think it's important to offer Different perspectives and strategies. I think that one of the the things that the first two should encourage is Questioning developing the skill of questioning.

I think it's You know the thing that Will allow people to identify Force teachers, you know, not to just open wide and Eat everything that's offered but to to learn to question to learn to develop a Good quality of question. I also think that you know, if we look at the The goals.

I think that it it really should be that both father figures and role models should be a foundation upon which The young people can build You know not just to emulate them and to get to where they are but to go beyond you know to to see them as a Catapult, you know to Propel them to a greater future Yeah, there's a lot in that there's a lot The funny thing of what I picked up is that The funny thing of what I picked up from it actually while I was while you was Talking about it We can logically articulate what it is to be a leader what is required kind of how you did in that conversation But the thing that I actually started to realize as to how a person could potentially go into the false leader side to it um Is down to ego A person basically passing on their knowledge but in an egotistical way them saying that my way is the way But you passing on your knowledge to what an individual needs Or what you believe is a guy that you said it at the end You said that there's a leader supposed to provide a role model or father figure supposed to provide a foundation Not the silhouette of what you're supposed to become It's supposed to be a foundation and then they can grow from that And then the only way that you can really and the person who's receiving it Should also have questions as to how is this do I agree with this part?

Like this part is good, but they say this part isn't but that part is harder as the the ages go younger Because it needs a gain of self-awareness And some people don't become self aware on twitter, but he's full east.

Yeah, you understand So that's what I really picked up that that you you really articulated it very well So I thought what's the missing piece and the missing piece is can a person get over their own ego?

Um as a leader and then can a person as they go through their ages be self-aware enough to know when to question I think because it was such an internal thought the question I would have for you is I guess there's two parts to it. The first thing is Have you ever considered yourself to be a false leader or questioned your leadership? And the second part to that is What does that look like?

What does false leadership look like to you? so good question, um I don't think that I have Considered myself to be a force leader at any given point um because I think just the way I am. I'm not I'm not really an ego type of person Um, i'm i'm normal. I want to see people go and grow. Do I mean i'm it's not about me It's never been it's never really it's never been about me.

Um, I think what was really hard about it was You know, sometimes people make a decision that has long term consequences And sometimes I wish I could have helped them to not have to go through that But I know I can't I know it's not it's not for me. You know, it's that that's We make we make our choices. We live through the consequences, but um Sometimes you would just you just think You know what I mean?

Um if you know, um So that was stretching me left right and center um in terms of What does force leadership look like again?

It could look like lots of different things and lots of different people um for me, I suppose It's interesting what craig said because For me, it's it is nearly always linked to ego um and people either wanting to create clones of themselves or um just reinforce their message and and almost make a uh When I was talking to some kids the other day and I was just saying to them You know my one bit of advice would just put all your energy into being one man Let's be that one man.

Um, so that wherever people meet you They meet the same Person regardless of the context, um, and I think that's what i've tried to do. So I think that yeah, the force teacher stuff I just know how damaging it can be Seen it far too often. Um so It would be my nemesis, I guess Do you know what I mean? Yeah, everything i'll be fighting against.

Um And yeah, so that's interesting though actually because thinking about that as you said that Because the question I kind of asked you is how do you identify? What does a false leader look false leader look like to you?

And it is actually very subjective because even in the eyes of the false leader They may not even think they're the false leader They may think that everything they're talking about is correct and that comes back to ego. Yeah. Yeah, so It's those it's the traits and I guess what you identify as That doesn't align with you. Well, that doesn't quite work as a leader.

They're not quite They're not the person that should be a role model to me or should be leading me Um, but then for someone else they'll be like, oh that guy's speaking the truth He knows exactly what he's talking about. I'm going with that guy So yeah, a hundred percent. It's definitely it's subjective and I didn't actually think about it like that.

So and I always the the word that always comes up in my head when I think about false leaders is Um, the road to hell is paved by good intentions That leader probably isn't thinking i'm gonna be a false leader and lead these people to hell They never say that yeah, but they really think oh I see the world in this way And if I had more people seeing it this way, the world would be great But and in my is the same eyes the same Words.

I also i've asked people this do you believe there is a utopia?

Do you believe there is a world where everything is exactly the way you said it should be in and everything is good Do you not see that there is benefits of there being the bad the the hard the the rough, etc So it's always a very interesting question that pop it's crazy I know we've got a teacher in the place, but i've got my notebook out and i've been having to take some notes just so Not forget my thoughts Um, I don't know.

I don't know who taught me that but we'll give it to Mr. Odo for now Um I think there's there's so many questions on this one. I just think there's so much Just because somewhat you may think someone is a leader doesn't mean that they are um And and just because you don't know about somebody else Um doesn't mean that person's not a leader and the visibility bit is the crucial bit, right?

It's like How does that how is that a determining factor in in that person being a leader? And being an effective one leadership Is irrespective of your qualities of leadership? You can be a leader irrespective of your qualities of leadership.

They are different things right and um Yes, the qualities of leadership might make you a better leader or or bad leader, but it doesn't determine whether you are a leader And so for me what determines what if you are a leader is following If you have following you are a leader If you do not have following you're not a leader It's that simple Another premise of leadership for me is that that leadership is based around relationship So without relationship, um, you can't be the leader you're trying to be Um, there's a relationship between the people you're leading and the leader You think about a teacher?

There's an innate relationship there that comes from this kind of self-interest of both people and so When there's a lack of relationship That's when there's a problem because one you haven't taken into consideration the people you're leading and their interests To help mold that relationship and mold the way you lead Um, and then they're kind of uh, there's two other things that I think are the premises that come From leadership, which is one that leadership is not static you know, um This situation here as surreal as it is is a great example Right.

There was a time where we were sitting in front of um, a mr. Odell and mr. Alexander And you know, you don't speak back and you listen And you learn from them um, and now we're in a situation where um Anthony mr.

Odell is here with us listening to us sharing his thoughts listening to our thoughts And hopefully he's going to take something away If anything being here is showing that he feels there's something he can take away and develop and learn um, and then the last thing and this is kind of what um, mr.

Odell was talking about um was you know The one thing you should do is just be one man Wow, that hit me that was just like There's always magic, you know the gold dust and it's like When we talk about masculinity and think about manning up and we think about growing up and our journeys, right?

There's so much confusion and differences and leaders that you can pick and false leaders out there and all that kind of stuff But if you are aware of your own interest your own Care for the kind of man you want to be that one person then that is the right place Um in that place you can be honest in that place You can make good decisions about who you want to learn from who you want to be guided by who you can guide um And so it ties into leadership that Yes, I can be a leader but if i'm not honest about the person that i'm trying to be And therefore how i'm leading then that's how I become a false leader Oh Okay, okay So a lot of I was on track with the whole part, right?

Of everything that you so thank you so much for your thoughts on that pj and I was really on track I was like, yeah, no, that's yeah. No, that's right.

That's right And then the the then the last part was oh if they're They know if they're not being the one man like the one man or the one person that true to themselves in a sense like when I first kind of started I guess getting the following that's a great a great way you say it getting the following probably run when I started to do the pageants And public speaking etc, etc Could I say I was extremely self-aware?

No, I made a lot of mistakes along the way But yet still a lot of people always kept saying craig you're just so positive You really helped me get through my day And then in the background I could maybe be insulting somebody putting someone down Being negative in my close relationships like me and my mom We had a lot of we used to butt heads a lot as well Or in my relationships, I was maybe very negative when when my ego is going too far and then i'm putting the person down Meanwhile on the flip side of a conversation the person is feeling really down and i'm maybe the person who helps them Either not commit suicide or not be that's two extreme polar opposites And then in two again two different lights my partner would see me as a falsely a false leader And actually I had that before they literally one of my partners said to me when when we the ended the relationship They said you feed off of people needing your help And that is your your your like you have a compulsive thing about it And I actually said and after she said that yeah, I was like Am I actually just feeding off of people needing me or am I do I genuinely want to help?

And I spent time figuring that out thinking do I genuinely want to help people or am I actually just feeding off of That part again, but you mentioned mr Odupet saying that he has a self-interest that He gets a good feeling from helping others But then is that kind of a narcissist trait where he's like, well, i'm just doing it because of me Kind of thing or is it you see how that it's so there's this like really blurred blurred line.

So i'm very Like a real thought. Ah, that that was a good quick. That was a good one But for me, it's just humanity but like I think there's so much here. I don't want to get too deep into it You know my thoughts about whether i'm a thomas hobbsian or aristocrat Aristotelian or whatever but like you know as humans, right?

We don't do anything effectively We don't do anything wholeheartedly unless there is an interest in it for us And that's I that is not a bad thing as long as the interest is positive, right?

You know if you've got a moral fiber that says in my view of the world people do Help people people do have virtue people do want to see people do good Then you doing that and seeing that happen Makes you feel good makes you feel like yes. This is the world.

I believe i'm in Um, and that is a self-interest in the word interest comes from the latin word interesse And interesse when you split it up actually means um uh that in and amongst It means in and amongst and so therefore it's basically saying that you learn yourself in and amongst others Right. So self-interest is not being selfish.

That's something else Self-interest is the things that you learn in and amongst others in those relationships that you care about That's how you understand self-interest.

It don't just randomly pop up Just because you are a false leader doesn't mean you can't do good Like let us not assume that just because we're calling someone a false leader that was saying they are bad people And everything they say is bad and all the effects of everything they do is bad But by no means am I saying that you know, a false leader can give good advice a false leader can make people feel good You know by george, they must be doing something to get that following in the first place For all of those things that we talked about role models father figures, um And false teachers, I suppose people are judging them as the finished article And not necessarily Appreciating that they're still on a journey Do you know what I mean?

Because As a father of five i'm a different father now than I was when I had my first child Because i've because i've learned and i've you know, I mean it's it's it is it's like Shifting sand It it goes different directions you try different things you you learn from certain things you think okay that didn't work out so well, let's try this and I think that the the call is for you to Keep going on that journey to be that man that you want to be I think that's the thing because you know if you were to judge Anybody on on one moment if you could pick maybe their worst moment in their life You might think boy That's true, um, but I suppose it's It doesn't end in that moment I suppose what's what the false leadership thing sometimes is When I think you're someone And that's the reason why i'm following you and I like these qualities within you and then I find out that that that isn't Who you are Then there's that feeling of betrayal there's all these other things that If the mirror wasn't there How would people reflect?

Because we often reflect through the people that we interact with and sometimes people can Take our image and reflect it back to us in a particular way um, and I suppose People can get gassed up They can they can get gassed up like whoa Okay, because not everyone who who grows an ego started off egotistical All right, let's not waste no time We've got one more voice note to get through before we go we finish up the convos.

So craig, uh do the honours, man We find ourselves in such an important time um And i'm sure every generation Has a moment where they're reflecting on the potential crisis on the other side potential opportunity and In this generation, I think there's nothing In the same place. It's not Nothing different here.

Um I feel there's some particular issues that arise for young men in particular And those things Really surround around career success um profession um, and basically following down a route That is fruitful. That is safe.

That is non-violent And role models and father figures are hugely important to that um, I think the next really and ever more present and growing is in the idea of masculinity and the attack really Or or or threat to what is, you know, the heterosexual Straight black man um And what it means to be a black man in today's society with all the other isms with all the um Changes and um Uh, you know the evolving of of sexuality And it can be a very very confusing time if you are a young straight heterosexual um black man um It definitely can be Difficult on the flip side as well if you are uh a young black man that is questioning their sexuality and the importance of of strong Um Kind of well-informed holistic Uh role models and father figures and and leaders that can help to guide you to embrace who you are um, but also Help where there's confusion.

Um So I look at this time and I look at the importance of um those figures and the sad situation is that Um in this time, we don't seem to have what is needed. We don't seem to have those role models.

We don't seem to have those leaders and instead we have you know leaders that are gathering following because of their entertainment value or um status on social media and that is giving them Above and beyond the power they should have to influence young people and and even um the the older generation as well um creating confusion misleading Not being responsible in the power that they have um, and it's something that needs to be discussed.

It's something that needs to be addressed and Um, if we can do that in this time we can see um young men Flourishing you can see young men and doing more and more amazing things.

We can see um young women too Um kind of breaking barriers and breaking the ceilings that have been there in the past We find this very often with our conversations is that when we start the conversation We have a very clear distinction about what it is We think and feel about it and then by the end of it, it's changed it's such a because even when we're talking originally was like well I get why there's false.

I guess I get why there's role models I get why there's father figures that kind of makes sense The role the false leaders doesn't really kind of work with that.

That's very Segregated and that's very separate and then as we've got into the conversation We've realized it's actually quite subjective like how we identify a role model and a false leader and actually really a lot of them are They they they kind of blend into one another one person may think you're a false leader whereas another person may think you're a role model And I think for me pj just hearing what you were sharing with us My question I would ask you based on what you said is As black men Do you think that we inherently have a responsibility to be a role model?

Sorry, or to to be a father figure to others and if so, why With with with the role models There's a very interesting word that comes to mind and and and antony mentioned it was about you know, or whether it was craig actually mentioned it about rihanna like choice um and Be you know How which one of those can be done?

Involuntarily and which one have to be done voluntarily um, and I feel like the difference between kind of a leader And and a father figure compared to a role model is that The former is kind of like voluntary Like you choose to take that responsibility on um, and therefore when you choose to take on a responsibility, um, there's a different level of commitment to it Starting with that foundation as a black man In our community in in our society as a man as well I think even more so in from you know in 2021 as a man because I feel there's so much um stigma and and and and and stress on men in general let alone black men that um The the the option to be a role model is being taken away That because there's so much need for role models that you need to understand as a black man Immediately you are going to be put into that position where you have to be a role model That makes sense There's there there is a chasm.

There's a gap already and so therefore there's more pressure on every black man being a role model uh, the reason why I created man up speak up and it was because actually that I saw there was a gap There was a pressure not only on young black men, but also an older black man as well And that there need to be a relationship between the two to understand those pressures And through that pressure and through that relationship to learn from each other what the opportunity is is that actually pressure makes diamonds and so The fact that there is this need for You know role models and I always talk about it when I talk about my story of saint bona ventures because that mr Wilshaw created that pressure as well You know that actually has young black men that were receiving a great education and were lucky and were from east london We had a responsibility to do well to do above and beyond And actually I think that pressure for 95 percent of us helped us to excel way further than we would have And so The black community has an opportunity with that gap of role models and everyone feeling like they have a responsibility to be a role model That will help us to excel individuals to excel because they're carrying that extra responsibility That's there's no there's there's a lot in there from the things that you said before on this one That's that's a that's a very interesting perspective actually, and I think you're really correct about about the voluntary involuntary Um And that causes this is where the rift is like can it can a black man just live in you know When they say can I just live can I just make my mistakes?

Can I just do what I want to do and not have to be judged? Uh lead somebody be watched say you need to be better. Can't I just do as I do?

and then obviously that is very much skewed when it comes to um Black men becoming fathers But the main thing actually what I really wanted to pick up because we haven't talked about this at all was your the particular part of your voice message was around sexuality Now this is a very very interesting part to me because we haven't actually touched about this this at all in regards to uh, um a heterosexual basically if a if a gay a gay man or a Transgender men or whichever one it is can they be my question to you is when we kind of talk about sexuality Do we believe necessarily a gay black man could be a leader to other people role models to other others as well?

Not in a bad way But is there do you you said that because of the sexuality problem that we're kind of facing this generation where things are very Fluid you could say um Do we have an issue here? Do we think that is that do we think that's a really strong point which is causing people to sway to different places?

There was two parts that you had actually that i'm going to pick up before I ask you the question was one was a sexuality But the second part was actually us Were creating leaders because they provide us with entertainment not because they are actually leaders Because they are very entertaining so we follow them and then all of a sudden we're trying to copy their lifestyle So which one do we my question to you is which one do you think plays a stronger role?

Do you think is the sexuality side or the fact that we are creating making entertainers become leaders? Um, yeah, there's definitely a lot in that.

I guess for me I start with I start with the first question you said about Um, you know people of different sexualities can they can they be leaders, you know I think I think they they have to be Like I think that that is that that is uh in in the generally they have to be um in today's generation but um in the black community, especially because You can't deal with a situation that you Want the situation to be you've got to deal with the situation that's at hand And the situation that's at hand is there's many young people very confused Right now there's many young people that are questioning their sexuality There's very there's very there's a lot of young people that um are sure about their sexuality, um And it may not it may be against the grain But don't have those role models that will help them feel comfortable to be who they want to be So I feel like Irrespective of my views on it.

These people have to be leaders um And in being leaders, they'll be able to help people to feel Um like like any role model that um, they can be the person they want to be I think it was martin luther king martin luther king said, um uh, um Love without power Um is is anemic and power without love is tyranny um, and so what he was trying to save was there was people that have power um, and don't use it and therefore create mess and chaos Right because they're not using their morals and interests and realizing that the power they have they can use for good but at the same time um, they're really important because they do have the power and it's not just for people that have all the love in the world and Have all the moral fiber and want to guide people but have no power because that's anemic How much influence and and difference can you make?

um, so To answer your question is that these people that are gaining following from their entertainment value They too should realize hopefully that they they they can be role models Um, and they don't have they don't have to be false leaders that instead they can actually Really learn about themselves and start leading through the person that they're trying to be Um, and actually that is that is is is imperative that they do so um So a great opportunity as well Yeah, well you need leaders everywhere like you need everywhere if you think about it You need leadership in every aspect of life you need leadership in terms of someone that reflects, I don't know You and everybody is is different So you need someone that's going to be a leader in terms of I don't know someone that's gay or someone that's That's straight or someone that's a woman or someone that's a black man.

Someone that's a white man. You need leadership everywhere It's dependent and I guess when we're looking at false leadership again, we're identifying are they being true to themselves? If they're a leader as a gay black man, are they being true to that?

And if they're not that's where we can almost identify them as being a false leader And the interesting thing I think we've we've kind of delved into as a bit of a food for thought as well is thinking about what antony said is Leadership doesn't necessarily mean there's an end product to it.

You're not going to be perfect There's no final product to be i'm the perfect leader I I can only be a leader if I am perfect because that doesn't exist We have we've already discussed this so many times how many mistakes leaders make we're all human so It's interesting that now thinking about it.

Do we not all have some part of responsibility of being A role model or a leader or a father figure and what do we identify ourselves to be? I guess antony i'll ask you that question. What do you identify yourself to be and when was you made aware of that?

All right, so before I answer the question, it's interesting just listening to the way the conversation's gone because you know, we we kind of got to a point where it was like The black man's almost being forced into a role model position But then listen to everything you guys are saying You I don't know if you heard but you're basically saying But we have to do it, do you know what I mean?

So so it's a it's a question of who Who's looking for these role models? Who needs them? and and if you know, um Where can we choose them from because We are we are it if if there are black boys looking to looking for something to to see And black men are saying well, i'm not to be honest. I don't want to be a role model So then where are they going to look? Do you know what I mean?

And um, it was interesting listening to what pj was saying I Quickly typed down void and then you said that there's an absence and it is because in Nature doesn't like a void something will always fill it You know something will always fill it and and we've got to decide I guess as men Will we be will we step into the void? Will we will we allow ourselves to be held accountable?

to try to solve the myriad of problems that we we see You know Or will we just stop and say well, there's a problem. There's a void over there. There's a big gaping hole Which I mean am I going to say Simon you got yeah Simon are you going to deal with it?

Okay, look at that hole like you know, because we can we can we can we can look at it in lots of different ways um, but going back to your question, um It's really interesting because even the word father figure, um Or the phrase father figure, um Kind of to me speaks of the absence of a father.

So somebody needs to step into that role um I don't want to be a father figure necessarily Well to my kids, I want to be their father.

I want to be the The life the dynamic action So when they think of that word, they don't think of a static thing Do you mean when they think of my when I you know when they think of their dad and their their father I don't want them to think of One thing They I want them to think of one man But I want them to be able to see that there are lots of sides to me just like a diamond I mean, um a diamond has many facets, but it's a singular entity um And because of the facets, that's where the value comes from and I think some people are afraid to be multifaceted because we're taught Jacker jacker all trades master of none Um, but where was who who said that maybe someone who wasn't good at lots of things No Why does that have to be the only the only way to do things, you know, why can't you commit to mastering many skills?

um so I suppose powerful and it's daunting sometimes like every every day it's daunting like because Something I say could Have a negative effect on someone Like that's fact Yeah, I see I suppose I can I can see that i'm a role model to some people yeah, um and I'm all right with that Um, but i'm not changing what I do because of that Hopefully people see me as that because of who I am If that makes sense, so if I can continue to be that same person then Everyone wins if that makes sense I think we I think just you saying that Almost identifies that we're all role models in our own unique way just by being ourselves And even when you're saying well Yeah, we still have a lot of learning to do and even when you're trying to think about Okay, I don't want to throw the title of false leadership onto this But at the end of the day if you're looking at someone who's a role model They're still learning and they're learning from someone else that they have a role model Your role model has a role model and their role model has a role model Like when you're following someone that person's following somebody else, so who's the real leader like what's going on?

We're all learning from each other. So at the end of the day, i'm sure Anthony you can admit even like as a teacher You learn from your students as well. There's a part of you that learn you take away from your students We're all role models to each other, which is a crazy thing to think about Yeah, man, it's no, I definitely talk. Mr.

Alexander a couple of things You learn a lot Oh But I think it should be like that. Do you know what I mean? It's gotta be both ways. It's gotta be Um, and and there's you know, there's fresh perspective. There's just a youthful energy. There's You know what? There's so much wisdom in young people Like some people think are they young people? They ain't got no sense. There's so much wisdom.

Do I mean like for you guys you didn't just Didn't this didn't just happen? You built upon it. You know what I mean?

And there was a hunger for insight and understanding and Reflection and thought But not everyone's on that Not everyone cares about the same things that obviously you guys have cared about Which just takes them on a slightly different journey Role role models father figures and post leaders are all titles and just as typical of the whole world in society We use titles to to to put people in little compartments like little boxes But if you were to say who is who is mr.

Older who's antony again, there's two different personas Well, he's everything he's so many things you can't put it in one You can't say he's a role model because you say okay. Well as a father He's maybe he's a father figana role model on this but then they'll say as a pianist If this man don't play piano, he's a false leader. He's false If he played the piano and that's what someone watched him.

He said no, he's not good man Why is he even on the piano? You see it's crazy, right? But It just shows that our society makes us want to categorize people like when we first started this conversation I'm not gonna lie.

I had a direction or so What I thought we would pick up a few people that we aspire to and look we i'm looking internally I'm like wow, I don't even If someone said if i'm my role model, I'll say yeah, I think i'm a role model and then now i'm looking at like actually Well, maybe i'm not maybe I am maybe and then I think the key part to really take away is the fact of Self-awareness If you can simply be self-aware enough to want to just live out your own story What is true to you?

Then you can be raw and I think that is the role model leadership and father figure to everything Q&A so first question is um What role model did you aspire to who had a lifestyle change that let you down Who? I could kick off.

I could I could kick off Will smith has been my only role model other than my dad But the only role model i've really thought of on the outside will smith um and As he progressed through his life, I think It was the first not the entanglement stuff in the recent years Not the entanglement stuff in the recent years But in the the first ever time that will and jada were ever seen as split up Like open relationship.

There was that whole thing. I was saying that they had they have an open relationship That was the first time I questioned Will smith Um, did it change the way I saw him?

It didn't Because i've learned something from reading the bible watching other people lead in certain ways Everybody every single person is human Nobody is perfect even will smith people say oh would you get excited if you saw will smith I said, you know what?

I'll ask him a few questions, but I won't make it an over excitement He's still a human that he just he just made a played a big role, but he's human So when that happens, there was a part of me that was like wow That's crazy. I thought this man was just straight up like his whole his whole ethos about fresh prince was family and Whatever.

I kind of just thought maybe he would just become a family man and he would stick to it But I didn't take it away No, I didn't he didn't it wasn't a letdown to this day He is still someone that inspires me because I take it in pinches of pinches like pinches of salt What is useful for me?

for me I've never really had A role model that i've put on a pedal stool like that to be like Well because they've done this now, I feel disappointed or disheartened in who they are because for me The way I look at people or the way Like and someone actually asked me this question not too long ago. It's like bro. Who are your role models in life?

It's like I don't really have robot I don't really have someone that I aspire to be because I in my heart and the way I I think I believe that everyone is their own individual as Craig. You said everyone is human they make mistakes and they just they live their life So i've never looked at someone who said Looked at someone who said Wow, I want to be like them.

I want to follow exactly who they are do exactly what they do the way that I look at life I have people in my life that have inspired me and it's like well, I would like to take something from them I'd like to take something from them. I would like to take something from them. Maybe by the end of the day I can only be me i'm gonna make mistakes too.

So i've never put someone on a pedestal As my role model to say this is who I aspire to be and then they've let me down Part of what I do is like train people on how to reflect on what I call their stick person It gets you to think about different parts of their life and the relationships that are important to them the institutions that are important to them Their key moments what makes them angry when they spend their time money And energy and they get to think about this kind of stuff, right and on mine.

I always talk about my mom I talk about um Father john armatage, you might remember I talk about um, uh lord michael willshaw um I speak about my granddad lots of these guys are like um people that inspired me not because some people think why is mr Willshaw there that white man or whatever but he inspired me just because he was a white man and he was He was like he worked at our school and really did believe that We could kill it in terms of people letting me down i'm not going to name the person but um, there's some people that used to go st.

Bonds that um By the way, st. Bonds was excellent on all of this by the way, right? let's let's just be really clear about it like you go to st. Bonds now like Anthony you can testify to this say angel is to 30% of the teachers are ex teachers are ex students Right the amount of people that come back into st. Bonds that used to go to st. Bonds is regular Those students are seeing old students Right all the time.

It's just like in the fabric of what goes on. There's a real understanding about how role models and um kind of like leaders and all that helps in the education of the next generation, um, and so In saying that there was a couple of people That used to get really put on a pedestal by st. Bonds.

I won't name them and um They they were amazing basically and I just thought damn they're the best and I just wanted to be just like them and then um They they basically like Um, I saw them on a most social level and they did something that was just really really Bad And I was just like, oh my gosh You're not that great at all You've got a little devilish side He's playing it down as well he's softening it as well.

Oh my gosh I was like, oh my gosh Genuinely shocked because the picture you had of that person Their actions are just not fitting it completely and and you know what that was one that was people being put on a pedestal Before they had really decided to be leaders um to it was Me as a follower not understanding leadership and and the role model properly at that time It was like clean cut.

It was like you were either great successful or you were bad and not something And that wasn't the case, you know, people are humans. They're making states. They're different. There's different facets to them Yeah, there's these guys that you think all they're focusing on is becoming a lawyer, but they like girls, too Uh, and they get distracted they get drunk behind the shadows, right?

um, you know what I mean and um Yeah, there was just a couple of things I heard about teachers and what they'd been doing and I was like, oh my gosh That's gonna be the title of this podcast episode.

Oh my gosh You gotta understand when you hear this stuff you just think no no, it can't be it can't be that Um, but it was that and and I guess it's really testament to what we're talking about, you know about mistakes and People being put on pedestals and people choosing to be leaders and role models all of that kind of stuff So yeah, no names but like There was there were some people that I really held in high esteem that um Yeah, they they they don't mess up It's funny i'm very much like simon, um, I Don't necessarily Think i've um Consciously named role models like yeah, this is the first time I see it more like shopping like You know, um, and there's a menu And I get to pick because I've come across lots of people and There's value in everyone um and you get to through your interactions start to Take pieces just like simon said and I think I've definitely done that.

I think that it's not that i've actively said i'm not going to have a role model um But i'm also aware that people are fallible Um, and obviously that that disappointment It's trying to remember they didn't do it to disappoint you Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? They didn't think right, you know what i'm gonna do.

I'm gonna do something and that's just gonna Change this person's perception of me um I think what's Yeah, I Yeah Don't Yeah, there's not been anyone really. No. Yeah.

Yeah, there's no That's completely fine, uh simon you got a question Uh What do you think we glorify leadership and if so why Uh, yeah, we do because people like to be put on a pedestal people like to kind of be worshiped rewarded like Felt a feel of belonging some people we as human beings.

We kind of want belonging Right to just be in the group but imagine being the one who is praised by their entire group as well And I think that was since we were kids in a sense like you could be among kids, right?

But if you was the one that everybody says, hey, we want to do what you want to do guy Then they're going you'll be like, hey, i'm gonna take this one and i'm gonna run with it But the funny thing is people think that it changes You you would be surprised how many adults are are begging are like Hey, please just just reward me Say that i'm great Say that i'm going to i'm i'm influencing say that i'm what they want to hear Is i'm doing life, right?

And we question all of us is questioning at some point in our life I think I think it's definitely glorified.

Um, and I think that the It's going to continue to be glorified But part of the problem is that I suppose throughout life People are kind of taught that The top is the almost like it's the only valid place Um, so and and I think that in in communities there's there's not enough Collaboration sometimes because we're seeing, you know, it almost causes people to think too competitively being competitive is great Do you mean?

Um, but I think that people end up building towers Um and When you approach a tower it looks like an attack You know if you're in your tower you see me coming Do you mean it doesn't look like this is uh, like what are you doing here? Do you know what I mean?

You know and then people defend their position when There are kids in school who do really well Whether that's academically or sporting sometimes the transition from that to The outside world is devastating for them because they were celebrated every single day, you know Um, everyone was calling their name All the attention was on them and then they got into the working world and you're just an and also and and And they want it back Do you know what I mean?

They want it back. They like they can't always process like where did that go? um And what they want is they want to kind of recreate They might not be able to name it but that's what they're trying to recreate so then people can Chase leadership to get that same affirmation or approval like you said um Yeah, but that's that observation from the from a teacher's perspective.

I see it all the time Um, there's a great video there and I suggest you guys watch it, right? And I use this in teaching it's called um dancing naked man If you put it in in youtube, it will come up um And basically It's um, it's this dancing naked man. He's not completely naked. He just got his shirt off in the park And he he's dancing crazy. I'll tell you some crazy ass dancing, right?

And he's obviously in like a festival or something like that and You can like see everybody like sitting on the park and on the hill kind of watching this guy Dancing so crazy, but you can tell like he just being himself That he wants to dance whether you guys want to dance I don't care.

I like the music i'm dancing and this is how I dance so he's dancing and he's dancing crazy, right and After about a minute into this video.

There's one other guy that kind of gets up from his friends And runs over to him takes off his shirt and starts dancing with this guy Right, and he starts dancing like he's dancing And um You know, obviously this guy's come from his six friends that are sitting Having a beer and obviously they think okay, my friend's gone.

I'm going now and they kind of run down Suddenly like like 10 12 people and then there's some more people running down and the video ends basically without 500 people dancing and And the two really important things is one you can no longer see that first naked dancing man Right.

No one knows who was the leader No one knows who started this but to The kind of narrator of this video talks about the first man that got up to join this leader Yeah, and he calls him the the the first follower And he says that basically the first follower is the true leader for two reasons one because Because He's the brave one to make that person a leader That person isn't a leader until he has a follower until someone comes up and makes that person a leader So he puts that person on that pedestal first And secondly, why does that person make them a leader?

They themselves have to do a calculation They do a calculation about themselves What they want what they want to do what they want to aspire to be And then they have to make a calculation about that person about whether that person's going to help them to bring that out of themselves And so that person even if the leader didn't think about developing other people or even themselves The first follower has to make that analysis that the leader doesn't and because of that they're the person that we should truly glorify that person And and and you know once there's the first follower it's cool now it's fine It's not odd for other people to follow once there's one follower And so I guess I'll tell you that story because it's like we always do glorify the leader But sometimes the leaders just doing their own thing Like it's not actually that hard to do their own thing, right?

There's some people that go out there and try and be leaders. That's different But if you're just going out to do your own thing, that's not that hard.

What's harder is to look at someone Assess that they are going to be the person to help you be the person you want to be and to actually get up Go to them and follow them This is this is not going this whole conversation ain't going nowhere that I thought it was going to go That's for sure where but so thank you. Thank you for that those thoughts. Um Well, this has been a crazy conversation. Um time.

I hope you sort of enjoyed it Thank you for listening so far and thank you all of the all the guests. Um again Let's round up properly. Um We usually run up with a food for thought one thing for everybody to take away because there's like so much So now we just go and give us like the one or two things to help people out Um, so i'll kick it off.

Um food for thought for everybody um Role models leaders father figures false force leaders all stuff like that.

Just be yourself Find a way to be Give yourself more time and energy than you give the world And you will find who you are And every problem or every single thing or everything you question will fall into place when you figure out who you are in the world Instead of trying to figure out the world before yourself Okay Yeah, man, I guess i'll to be fair I would reiterate that point I would go through full circle on The the kind of keywords that I brought up at the start which is about Responsibility and power that when you have that power you have the responsibility But at the end of the day, you can only be true to yourself.

So just be yourself You will find that even though you're not intentionally going out to be a leader or to be a role model Have the self-awareness to know that you are going to impact other people's lives in one way or another and you have a responsibility for that But you have to be yourself at all times So I would definitely leave people without just be yourself be yourself Anthony Yeah, so I'd echo all of the sentiments.

I would also say that um Going back to what I said at the beginning. I think it's about questions I think that you know a question I always ask people is who taught you that Um, because we sometimes move through life using these automatic programs That we didn't Decide on you know, someone passed it on and we just ran with it But question stuff, you know, so who taught you that you know, and Is it still valid today?

Because as you move through your life There are some things that stand and they will stand forever and there are some things that were right for you in that season of your life um, so I would say You know stay in the question for longer You know, don't always rush for the first response Um, because it's not always the best one um, you know, so stay in the question let it marinate um, Find out more read more listen more um And then with all of the information You know then act intentionally, you know, um Yeah, that's what i'd say pj lovely, um, yeah, I think Um, there's lots of things I can say that I feel like I said But what I took away, I think maybe is more important as a final four um And most of it is from antony really Once struck me You know the diamond, you know, the diamond is one entity But with different facets, you know, it's all the same Um material it's all made trying to do the same thing but Shows different lights in different in in in different colors and different lights Um, so be that one man Um, but be aware that there is a gap There is a gap and therefore In being that one man, can you make yourself visible so you are out there to be a potential role model for someone else?

Um, and I think those three teachings link together really well for me be that one man I recognize there is a gap and therefore Can you take that step that responsibility to make yourself visible so that someone can can see you as a role model Powerful powerful powerful. Okay. So thank you.

Thank you very much Um antony and pj and of course simon as well for everything this conversation is being profound Um, we've gone on for a while and i'm really really appreciate all the views I'm gonna have to sleep on all of this and then rethink my whole life afterwards once again Um, this podcast talking to my thoughts is a platform.

It's not just a podcast We really really care about everybody's views and we want to give this kind of open a open conversation Without a particular direction. There is no ego to say it has to go in this direction earlier This is a great time to self-reflect.

So as always um This platform is not just about us talking to you We want to hear your questions We want to hear any of your conversations anything that you you kind of uh was stirred inside of you and any experiences and we will Be sure to really discuss them as well.

If you enjoy the podcast as always, um, I want to do something to help us out Please consider liking sharing and remember to follow us at talking to my thoughts to stay up to date with all of our content But overall, thank you for listening and thank you for your patience and your ears And we really really appreciate you and thank you everybody for being on the call Yeah